围炉夜话 （7）
anonymous-633 04/04 8171
4.5/126
3/31号那天，Chuck Page 忽然出现在反SCA5的28群里，大家都不相信是真的。他确认是他本人后，由LY主导，和Chuck在28群里像朋友一样聊了一个晚上。对话相当精彩！
第二天一早，我写下：昨晚观看＂围炉夜话＂，让我感觉像在梦中一样。早起看见满屏留下的各种智慧的理性的言语，让我颇为感叹：没想到Chuck会进到我们的小圈子里来和我们对话；没想到LY在没有任何准备的情况下能问出那么多理性而直率的问题；没想到Chuck的理念和想法和我们许多人如此相近；没想到所有人都很enjoy，呼朋唤友地进来观摩......
大家可以看出，Chuck是一个非常有智慧，愿意去面对问题，解决问题，很温和共和党人。他现在正在为他的选举筹款（离目标还有点远），如果看完他的采访，你喜欢他，请捐出一点钱来支持他，帮帮他，帮他实现他的梦想 --- 在第一阶段，成功胜出加州28区众议员的初选。其实，帮他就是帮助我们自己，帮助加州成为政治生态更平衡的地方，更能凸显民主的真谛。
他的竞选网站是：
www.chuckpage.org
因为谈话很长，我会分7篇发出。不要错过任何一篇哦！
Section 7: Affirmative Action in SCA5 circumstance (education), protection of minority or not? Also insight to share on resolving issues between Latino and Chinese? [This part is late clarified and went through modifications to remove the confusions]
Chuck
The Latinos I've spoken with detest he idea of getting a handout in the form of admission I college or high school or anyhow else. Nearly every one that I've spoken with agrees that if the problem is that a large number of Latinos are not graduating, then we have to address the problem much earlier - pre-K through 3rd grade, typically. And, where family value & education is missing, create programs to educate the parents about the process so they can understand it and teach their kids.
I was at La Raza Roundtable meeting in Friday - ethnically based Latino org holds monthly meetings with speakers and discuss issues that the community has. Most issues they work on resolving some need help from state & county. They ask and get attention. We need to do same for Asian community. And, if Latino - Asian issues exist, I will be happy to lead a meeting of leaders to speak together (preferably over food) to find where specific differences are and work to resolve them.
I don't have all answers as to where the perceived problem originated, but I'd bet dinner that it's not the people - it's the politicians. Some lobbyist may have brought some bad statistics to a legislator and he ran with it because it didn't "feel" right.
When logic prevails, solutions can be found. That doesn't mean that compassion is ignored, but a real solution will be one that addresses the problem in a compassionate, understanding way. Does that make sense?
I personally believe that AA applies when specific groups are discriminated against & not provided with the same opportunities to succeed as others are. That is not the case here (in education and particular at college level and above). If the stats used by Hernandez were correct, then I think he makes a perfect case for public school vouchers - let the schools compete for students by improving the education they provide.
LY
Chuck, I need you to verify my understanding "If the stats used by Hernandez were correct, then I think he makes a perfect case for public school vouchers - let the schools compete for students by improving the education they provide." So your goal is throwing money on it (K-12 voucher) till we have racial composition in university matches population? If Latinos is 40%, should the stats show Latinos has 40% enrollment, plus/minus certain range? I'm not totally getting all your thoughts.
Chuck
NO, admittance into college is based on a lot of factors - grades, test scores, extra-curricular activity, etc. If any college is 100% reflective of the demographic makeup of its community, it is more by chance than design. Most colleges strip off all demographic info incl names when evaluating students for acceptance.
Admittance into college is merit based - considering lots of factors. I don't believe that Hernandez' stats are correct. And the way Jerry Hill and Rich Gordon describe the issue, it isn't even about admittance but it's about them not graduating. If that is truly the problem, you can't fix it by admitting more Latinos into college. You've got to figure out why they aren't graduating - that has not wen done by any of these people from what I've seen.
Again this is about determining what, if anything, is the real problem.
School vouchers do not equal to massive amounts of money. Vouchers to students who could use them to choose their schools (there are limits to this - location among then) means that the schools would have to improve their educational offerings so that kids & parents want to go there. Schools get paid by the number of kids enrolled & attending. Bad schools - no kids, no money. They will improve in order to get more students.
Remember SCA 5 enables discrimination in any PUBLIC EDUCATION entity not just college.
The best thing about this being a constitutional amendment is that it would come before the voters before becoming law. And, since we now know that even voter approved laws can be overturned, that wouldn't be the end of it. I highly doubt that it would get approved in an election.
I do not think that there should be stats used to ensure that each public school or college has a specific ratio of demographics in it.
LY
Then how to we (measure and) ensure "equal opportunity" (without using statistics)?
Chuck
Educational equal opportunity means ensuring that every student has an equal opportunity to achieve success. It does not mean promoting any one group over another.
In my opinion, educational opportunity does not start at college. It starts in elementary school and before. Students earn their acceptance into college. And they earn their graduation from college.
You cannot put a quota on those in my opinion.
The stats that Hernandez used really don't matter. I don't know the basis of his reasoning for bringing this forward. I thought that his data is probably old and may not actually apply at all bases on the statistics I've seen about college acceptance demographics.
We must ask those elected fighting for SCA 5 to tell us exactly what the problem is. I have not heard a single answer to that. And there has to be a defined problem before anybody amends our constitution to fix something that isn't there.
My position is that SCA 5 is WRONG. The people that back it have provided no single reason for it - they need to. That still won't make it acceptable - SCA 5 is still wrong.
But if they answer we will learn if they actually have specific reasons for it or if they are (as I suspect) all over the map - no 1 specific reason - just "feelings"
I never have and never will (support using the statistics Hernandez way to justify SCA5).
I do not believe that there should be quotas in public education admission policies. There should be an equal opportunity for ALL students to learn such that they can achieve admission into any college that they work hard enough to meet the admission qualifications.
Absolutely. No Discrimination. Ever.
Update I:
[April 2, 2014] Chuck Page would like to reiterate that he will support and defend the Equal Protection Clause in the constitution as well as California Constitution Proposition 209. Sepecially Chuck will oppose any and all actual or attempted discrimination against, or grant preferential treatment to, any individual or group on the basis of race, sex, color, ethnicity, or national origin in the operation of public employment, public education, or public contracting; such discrimination includes, but is not limited to, any proposed or actual implementation, explicitly or implicitly, by state institutions of higher education of considerations related to race, sex, color, ethnicity or national origin in student recruitment or selection programs.
